Cladonia ramulosa?

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Steve
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Location: Sheffield, Yorkshire

Cladonia ramulosa?

Post by Steve » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:29 am

Found on wood at Longshaw Estate, Peak District, 3/3/16

Identification attempted using Frank Dobson’s book (new edition).
Colour: yellowish rather than blue-grey
Soredia: all of podetia finely sorediate or finely squamulose
Podetia surface texture : as above
Podetia branching: very scarce
Cups: just one small cup of C. fimbriata (wine-glass) shape
Basal squamules: matted, up to 2 mm, incised, white below, not curling
Apothecia: few, largish, translucent pale brown
Split along podetia : not seen
K -ve
K+C -ve
Based on the largish, pale brown, rather translucent apothecia I keyed this out as possible Cladonia ramulosa.
Steve
Attachments
Cladonia ramulosa.jpg
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Neil Sanderson
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Re: Cladonia ramulosa?

Post by Neil Sanderson » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:45 pm

Steve

No Cladonia ramulosa (scruffy as we call it affectionately in the New Forest) very definitively does not have a strongly sorediate podetia surface. The LGBI2 gives this description:
Podetia ... surface variously squamulose, in part granular-scabrid or at times partially or almost entirely decorticate, rarely with few, scattered, granular soredia
Even for a Cladonia this species is very variable but the smallish size, rough podetia surface created by the cortex breaking up and the Pd + red spot test are reasonably diagnostic. I have attached a picture of some well developed New Forest material.

What you have is probably mainly Cladonia coniocraea with a single Cladonia fimbriata podetia to the left with the cup.

All the best Neil
Attachments
2012-05-14-01.jpg
Cladonia ramulosa in a hollow way, The Ridge, Lyndhurst, New Forest
Neil Sanderson

Glos lichens
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Re: Cladonia ramulosa?

Post by Glos lichens » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 am

Is it Ok, Neil, that some of the podetia appear to be forking, eg the one bang in the middle at the front of Steve's photo, and that some of the podetia are lumpy rather than smooth and slender - eg the one close by on the right? This isn't the impression one gets from Dobson, nor from the Nordic Flora V5. Juliet

Neil Sanderson
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Re: Cladonia ramulosa?

Post by Neil Sanderson » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:49 am

Juliet

The forked podetia is probably damaged. Most Cladonia descriptions are of well grown material and break down in the face of the reality of scrappy and broken material. The podetia without cups just looks like normal Cladonia coniocraea to me!

The classic error perpetuated by idealised Cladonia descriptions is that Cladonia polydactyla is defined by having cups, well it has cups when well grown but does not when small and young. Hence the majority of Cladonia polydactyla does not have cups and many records of Cladonia macilenta made on the basis of material with red apothecia/pycnidia, a K + yellow spot test and no cups are actually of poorly grown Cladonia polydactyla. Cladonia macilenta and Cladonia polydactyla are best told apart mainly by the former have fine farinose soredia and the latter having course granular soredia.

Cladonia is great but like Sphagnum species, just do not expect to identify every individual!

However, there is a need for a ID guide that tries to cover the pit falls of poorly developed material, even if to point out when ID is impossible!

All the best

Neil
Neil Sanderson

Neil Sanderson
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Re: Cladonia ramulosa?

Post by Neil Sanderson » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:29 pm

To follow on from the above

Pictures of Cladonia macilenta and Cladonia polydactyla.

Both have K + yellow podetia and have red apothecia/pycnidia, but the Cladonia macilenta has a gracile podetia with fine soredia, podetia often with a yellow tinge and never with cups.

Cladonia polydactyla is less gracile, with course granular soredia, podetia often with a blueish tinge and with cups when mature (but absent when young).

Really quite different looking Cladonia species (and apparently not closely related genetically) but the presence or absence of cups is not actually a very useful way of telling them apart, despite getting top billing is most descriptions.

All the best

Neil
Attachments
2014-03-23-41.jpg
Cladonia macilenta, Holt Heath, Dorset
2018-09-06-02.jpg
Cladonia polydactyla, Sawel Mountain, Co Tyrone
Neil Sanderson

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